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2/16

2nd Thoughts on Last Week's Seminar

I think Flanagan still has a point

After our discussion the other night, I am still left thinking that the way Flanagan wants to establish a foundation for human flourishing is by looking at the virtues that underlie various spaces of meaning. I think this is why he used Aristotelian philosophy and Buddhism as examples of eudaimonics because both use virtue as a means for achieving human flourishing. We discussed in class whether groups with competing views could even discuss the notion of human flourishing because from the get go their world views would be in conflict. For example, how is a Buddhist and a Catholic going to discuss human flourishing when they disagree on the fundamental belief of whether God exists? However, I don’t think Flanagan sees any use in comparing the social or religious practices of groups, but rather I think he seeks to establish objective criteria for human flourishing by looking at the virtues that underlie these various practices. By looking at a wide variety of groups in a wide variety of time periods(WRE) and by looking at the empirical evidence of virtues that seem to produce human flourishing, Flanagan hopes to establish which virtues, regardless of the practices, lead to human flourishing. For example, if we look at Aristotelian philosophy, Buddhism, and Christianity we could see that all three groups propose that temperance is a virtue that leads to flourishing. Therefore, the empirical evidence indicates that temperance should be incorporated into the idea of human flourishing. Therefore, once again, we are not looking at which practices seem to lead to flourishing, but rather what virtues lead to flourishing. This is the level at which comparative dialogue can take place because every space of meaning has underlying virtues. The problem occurs when trying to discover which social or religious practices best incorporate the virtues that lead to human flourishing. For instance, both the Unitarian church and the Catholic Church believe in expressing the virtue of justice, but when it comes to same-sex marriage they are in radical opposition of how this virtue of justice is best applied. So, this is where Flanagan may be stuck. Yes, we can have dialogue about which virtues lead to human flourishing, but the dialogue might cease when it comes to incorporating these virtues into specific practices. However, maybe we could continue to use the same rationale and empirical evidence that we used in finding the essential virtues of human flourishing, in order to find which practices best incorporate these virtues.Cfaller 04:12, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

Flanagan certainly does have a point...

Cameron, I think you hit the issue right on the head. I think Flanagan presents a good model of how we treat human flourishing, as we already do or should. The key difference and his contribution, at as far as I see it, is the weight to which we give empirical data. You answer your own question, in saying that we would address whether or not different practices are more effective at producing the "objective" set of virtues, based on empirical observation. Before I lay out more clearly what I think is the problem, especially after having had a few days to think about it, I want to more clearly talk about the merits of Flanagan's philosophy, as you do.

I have to agree that for the different spaces of meaning, there has to be some common medium through which they can arrive at common conclusions. Otherwise, I think we end up with a late Wittgenstein model, where honestly we'd best just be silent, if knowledge is our aim. You refer to this space as the virtues, aspects of human life that we all adhere to or value in some manner or form. Things like courage, love, honesty, justice and so on. Not only does this make sense, but we already do this. The only way by which people with different beliefs communicate in a tolerant or better yet, accepting manner, is when they find overlap or commonality between their beliefs. The counter-example being something intolerant, like religious wars, wars on terrorism, insularity and so on. We do seem to come to a consensus on certain things, and thus we coexist.

Now, I don't think we should say the whole model is awful, that the baby should go out with the bath water; though I do think there are some issues. I realize I'm not the only one on here, but I'm just throwing out the criticism I've been developing. The concern should lie in how this common space of meaning is treated. Clint's diagram from the other week, I actually think is accurate to how Flanagan treats scientific knowledge, which is to say empirically based theory. I say treats, because it is not what he says he does, which I feel is the important distinction and the heart of my criticism. Flanagan spends time distinguishing "Scientism" from science, as well as pointing to the modesty science should have in itself, for it is fallible knowledge. Any scientific theory purports to be no more, as the fallibility of empirical observation is built into the scientific method. Revision is in fact a key component to science, aiming at the highest plausibility possible. This is what Flanagan says he means to do, in regards to the virtues, or human flourishing. However, given the "Ouch 1" on page 126, which we talked about last week, there arises a problem. The common ground, (empirical observation) upon which all spheres of meaning communicate through, is in fact another space of meaning. Though it be our best method of understanding, it is still fallible. "Ouch 1" implies that believing in anything but that center space, in fact in believing in anything beyond that center space can warrant, is childish and foolish. Here in lies the danger, if Flanagan does not treat that common space of empirical observation and science as fallible, then he may be committing to a kind of positivism, which is really just his "Scientism." Though his account is a good one, I would argue we must treat this common space of meaning as our best practice, not the only practice. Or better put, that we should recognize that it is the more reliable way for us to understand our existence, but that it is a way of our understanding, not absolutely true. He may say he doesn't do this, but he rules out a lot outside of it, when it itself isn't as reliable as he treats it, though it's the best we've got.

This concern isn't only pointing to what may be a poor philosophical move, but also the sociological implications it has. If one takes fallible knowledge and treats it as infallible, it creates the perfect recipe for corruption. That is to say, one can smuggle practices, as you put it Cameron, under the radar as virtues. Which, under his model, I don't even know what the distinction would rightly be, other than virtues perhaps being formed under WRE, and practices under RE. Presumably however, you could have more "mature" practices after WRE. That seems to be the real danger however, in that couldn't one say that based on empirical observation and WRE, that my notion of "freedom" as a democratic American, in regards to human flourishing, is more mature and more effective than that of say...a Cuban communist? Most acutely put, my criticism could be read as: What counts as empirical data and who gets to decide what counts as that data? I feel the answer would and should conflict with the kind of assertion and the implications thereof, of "Ouch 1." Byost 06:00, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

Sub-topics and references within Chapter 5

Is a science of happiness possible?

I am a little concerned about Flanagan’s goal of trying to establish objective criteria for happiness because it seems as though happiness, as we consider it, is so dependent on pre-established beliefs and social conditions. I like Flanagan’s distinction between "American happiness" and other forms of happiness because it seems impossible to set up criteria for happiness based on the “American model.” We tend to conceive happiness as simply an emotional state, in which case it is improbable to have an objective set up criteria that leads to this emotion. Emotions are so dependent on pre-established beliefs and expectations that they are very subjective to the individual. For example, most people believe that avoiding pain leads to happiness, but for those that believe in severe self-mortification, pain is seen as a way to achieve happiness in the next life. The point is that our view of whether were happy or not is so dependent on social conditions and/or our own personal world view that simply asking certain people if they’re happy does not give us a good indication of what leads to “true happiness.” This is why I believe both Hedonics and subjective well being tests fail to give us a good indication of the source of happiness. Both tests rely on receiving subjective data in order to form objective criteria which does not work. If this did work then, according to data table 5.1, I would be happier being a sex worker in Calcutta than being homeless in the United States, which I believe is highly unlikely. I believe the homeless person is less happy because he/she knows that there are so many people in this country living better lives than himself/herself while the Calcutta sex worker sees his/her life as better than many of the poor living around him/her.

However, that being said, I wonder if there is a set of objective criteria for happiness based on our nature as human beings. Are there certain things that all humans could do that would bring about some level of happiness? I think Flanagan attempts to answer this question through trying to measure Eudaimonstic well-being (EWB). In this system, one begins with a set of conditions that one believes lead to a good life and then sees whether happiness occurs when these conditions are fulfilled. I think this approach has much more promise because it is not based on the subjectivity of emotions. Through Flanagan’s example of the meditating monk, I think he is starting to set up some objective criteria for happiness. By seeing humans as "intellectual beings,” we can discover that some level of deep reflection or contemplation is going to be good for our nature. This notion is verified through tests that have shown that mediating monks have strong leftward activity in their brains. However, these monks believe that mediation leads to happiness, and therefore it is not surprising that they experience happiness while mediating. I wonder though if someone that believed that mediation was a waste of time would discover happiness in meditation. I believe that it is possible to have an objective criteria for happiness, but it must be based on human nature and separated from the idea of happiness as an emotion. I also don’t know how these criteria could ever be implemented due to people’s personal world views and conditioned beliefs.Cfaller 05:28, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

No objective version of Happiness in sight

I liked this chapter as I am somewhat of a numbers guy. The hedonometer is decent as a measure of average subjective well being, using Flanagan's general social survey data to establish metrics of overall happiness. The results show which groups (not individuals) are most likely to experience happiness and at what level compared to another, but I wish it showed what elements or variables made up their happiness set.

Also still no sign of an objective happiness definition through the chapters. We can perhaps break this down to an American version or a 18-24 year old demographic setup, but not one in totality. As such thus far, looking at the table on p. 153 we can make guesses:

    Forbes = sense of security and maximized leisure time.
    Massai = family, quality of lifestyle.
    Nuns = sense of belonging to something larger, love.

Perhaps from this we can draw commonalities and work toward an objective. Using the metric to find what is lacking for the prisoners or Detroit callgirls that isn't instantly obvious. I'd also like to explore my happiness index and was intrigued by the quote on p. 164, "...a normal undergraduate population approximately 18 percent fall into the 'very happy' group, then a finding that 25-30 percent i that group for a representative sample of Buddhist practioners would be statistically astounding."

A review of Flanagan's book on Amazon said, "Let me say up front that I did not finish this book - and that's my point. I found it completely impossible to read, and I read a lot of popular science type books. It was not worth my time to slog through" I wonder if the reviewer became frustrated halfway through and gave up with no concrete definition of happiness and objective qualities?

Finally going back to p.154, I don't buy Flanagan's example of the Calcutta sex working taking classes to improve her low happiness index. While enrichment can be found in education, her vocation and family life remains constant. The grip of illusion isn't applicable in this instance.

Vallandry 18:08, 15 February 2010 (UTC)