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| | Return to [[Human Nature]] | | Return to [[Human Nature]] |
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| − | ==Section 1: Reconstructions== | + | ==Section 1: Participation Journals== |
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| − | ==Euthyphro1== | + | ===Euthyphro 10=== |
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| − | When Socrates asks Euthyphro, “is the pious being loved by the gods because it is pious, or is it pious because it is being loved by the gods?” he is questioning the basis of things. He wonders about the relationship between two things, especially those which are in effect of one another. The question brings to mind a circle with one idea spawning another and no clear beginning or end. However, Socrates seems to believe definitively that piety is loved by the gods or that the gods create piety through their love; one is an affect of the other. If piety is pleasing to the gods, then people would be more in control for if they swayed their actions to be pious they would attain the favor of the gods. However, if the gods create piety then they would hold more power for people would respond in respect and humbleness to the gods will.
| + | ====Student 1==== |
| − | Socrates would answer this question with a serious of questions regarding a similar topic, but one less complex. He would then relate the responses to these questions back to the original idea. For example, in Euthyphro, Socrates states that there is a difference between something carried and something carrying. He then goes on to ask if “the thing carried is a carried thing because it is carried, or for some other reason?” By addressing the idea from a simpler perspective, Socrates is able to achieve solid conclusions about issues that can be applied to a more complex situation.
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| − | Though his dialogue, Socrates decides that something changes or is created because it is affected by something else and did not change or come about of its own accord to produce a response. He deems that “it is not being loved by those who love it because it is something loved, but it is something loved because it is being loved.” However he also comes to the conclusion that something is being loved because it is pious (which would be an act to produce a response) and that something is god-loved because it is loved by the gods (a state of being that causes an action). For Socrates, these two ideas clash and he comes to the conclusion that piety and god-loved are not synonymous.
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| − | ==Euthyphro2==
| + | Throughout the entire dialogue, Socrates asks Euthyphro repeatedly what the definition of piety is. After each explanation given to him, Socrates finds the flaw and proves the definition to be false. Presumably, Socrates wants to know the answer to this question, because he is entering court on this day. He wants to be able to argue against the true definition of piety and, therefore, win the case against him. In Euthyphro’s third definition of piety, he basically says, “All that is loved by the gods is pious, and all that is hated by the gods is impious”. When Socrates says, “Is the pious loved by the gods because it is pious or is it pious because it is loved by the gods”, he questions the definition. Ultimately, he completely eliminates Euthyphro’s previous definitions for piety. His first reason for not accepting this definitions is because, he proves that the piety came first, before the liking, through his “see/seeing and carry/carrying” analogies. Basically, Socrates means that “being liked” is a state of an object/idea already in existence. Therefore, that which is righteous is liked by the gods, because it is righteous, it isn’t righteous solely because the gods like it. Socrates offers a definition as well; "piety is a species of the genus 'justice'”. Soon enough, Socrates points out that his definition is also false. All that is pious is not necessarily just, as well as, not all that is just is necessarily pious. However, most human beings generally associate that which is pious, is also just, or considered “morally correct”. Finally, Socrates points out that there are many actions that cannot be sorted into both or either category. If you save your brother’s life by shooting a killer, it is not considered morally correct. But is it considered pious? |
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| − | Socrates is charged with impiety, but he does not even understand the real definition of piety. He goes and questions what the universally true meaning of piety is: whether it is loved by the gods because it is pious or if it is pious because it is loved by the gods. The stakes are determined by whether the gods are dependent on the issue or not. Plato’s presentation of morality is still a debate.
| + | ===Are we radically wrong about our knowledge of reality?=== |
| − | Plato uses Socrates’ circular reasoning in his argument to demonstrate the importance of addressing piety. In Socrates’ third definition, piety is loved by the gods because it is pious, piety is independent of gods. The gods, like all living creatures, are bound by the greater force of morality. Euthyphro only lists attributes and examples of piety instead of actually defining it, such as the universal approval of the gods or prosecuting his father. Although there pious actions such as bravery or caring for the gods or others are good, it still does not present a clear definition for piety.
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| − | In Socrates’ second premise of his definition, it is pious because it is loved by the gods, piety is dependent of the gods’ actions. What actions are “evil” such as murder and rape and what actions are “good” are decided by the gods. The problem with the definition depends on whether a person is religious or an atheist. Euthyphro is stumped by Socrates when asked what the outcome of piety is (17e).
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| − | In the end, Socrates still has no clear definition of piety. Euthyphro explains giving the gods gifts in order to be liked by them is pious, which brings him back to his previously failed definition of what gods like. Socrates would have no answer, but would clearly present both sides of the dilemma. The first premise may prove to be true if one believes all God’s commands are good, but may be proven false because He hypocritically incorporated unethical actions into the world. The answer is in the matter of personal values. Piety is what one believes to be just and is considered moral to his or her own conscience.
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| − | ==Euthyphro3== | + | ====Student 1 ==== |
| − | The dilemma in Euthyphro is asked by Socrates when stated, “Is the pious loved by the gods because it is pious, or is it pious because it is loved by the gods?” Socrates is trying to justify what piety is to help him in his court case where he is being charged for impiety. Through the dialogue, it seems as though circular reasoning keeps going on. Socrates will ask Euthyphro a question, Euthyphro will answer it, but right away Socrates questions his answer. Either way you answer this question, there is always a way to rebut it: that is what is at stake. Not all the gods agree on the same things to be pious or impious.
| + | ====Student 2 ==== |
| − | Euthyphro answers the question by saying the pious is what is loved by gods, but Socrates uses the reasoning that the gods could possibly disagree among themselves as to what is pious and just. With that, Euthyphro changes his answer to that pious is what is loved by all gods unanimously. Socrates answer to this question is that gods love what is pious because it is pious, not because it is loved by the gods.
| + | ====Student 3 ==== |
| − | This question is about where do morals come from. Do they all originate from the gods? How do we know what the true form of pious is unless we interact with the gods and know the true form of it? We do not know the actual form of piety, just the idea of it that has been passed on. Socrates tries to narrow down the definition of piety and what is pious, but there is no absolute answer, just the ones that we create.
| + | ====Student 4 ==== |
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| − | ==Euthyphro4== | |
| − | The question of piety and whether it is loved by the gods simply because it is pious or whether pious actions are pious because the gods love them basically comes down to a person’s individual beliefs. This is what is at stake in the question. For every argument made by either party in this argument, there was a completely legitimate counter argument that was made. This caused the argument to go in a large circle and basically come back to what a person believed about the characteristics of the gods back then. Now, with the spread of Western Christianity, the question changes because of a singular God versus a large number of gods since one of the major premises in Socrates’ argument is the gods being in constant conflict with one another, and the one Christian God cannot logically be in conflict with Itself.
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| − | I do not think that it is an accident that Plato had these two men meet to discuss this issue. Socrates is known for not conforming to the Greek standards when it came to believing in their gods, and Euthyphro is obviously a religious scholar who would never question the gods and their love of piety because it is pious. Socrates knows that the answer to this question concerning piety cannot simply be solved with logic and, I believe, that he just wanted to take this opportunity to make this religious scholar question himself a little bit. Although Socrates never directly gives his opinion in this argument, I believe he would answer the question by saying things are pious because they are loved by the gods. This is because he challenges Euthyphro’s argument in the first place, and is constantly offering counter arguments to his claims throughout the argument. Also, the fact that Socrates is being prosecuted for corrupting the youth by not teaching them about the gods according to the Athenian customs also points to Socrates belief of piety being based on what the gods love. This belief is scary because it would cause major issues in ethics and whether good is actually good and bad is actually bad, and these questions may have caused Socrates to strike up the argument with Euthyphro in the first place in hopes that the religious scholar could show him where his logic was flawed that he could believe such a thing. These are the reasons that I believe that Socrates felt that pious acts are pious because they are loved by the gods.
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| − | ==Euthyphro5== | |
| − | In the Euthyphro dilemma, Socrates and Euthyphro try to define the meaning of pious. Euthyphro makes several attempts at the definition but each attempt is subjected to Socrates and shortly there after, refuted.
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| − | In his first attempt to define piety, Euthyphro states that piety must be that which is loved by all gods. However, Socrates illustrates that the God’s are constantly at odds which each other and they’re always at least two viewpoints on a definition. He asks Euthyphro if the God’s would disagree on what is beautiful and what is ugly. This then forces Euthphyro to state that piety is what all gods love unanimously.
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| − | This definition leads to many more problems in the definition of piety. Socrates asks “is the pious loved by the gods because it is pious or is it pious because it is loved by the gods?” This generates a dilemma in which there can’t be an absolutely correct answer. “It cannot be said that the reason why the pious is pious is that the gods love it. For, as Socrates presumes and Euthyphro agrees, the gods love the pious because it is pious (both parties agree on this, the first horn of the dilemma). And it cannot be said that the gods love the pious because it is pious, and then add that the pious is pious because the gods love it, for this would be circular reasoning.”
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| − | This dilemma has been unanswerable ever since it was first proposed. In defining this question, we are searching for a definition of morality and which defines the other.
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| − | I’m not sure Socrates could answer this question. Because to give a exact answer to a question like this would force Socrates to make too many assumptions that he may not be willing to make. Already in the discussion Socrates agrees that piety is what all gods love unanimously. This was very difficult for Socrates to do however because it would be ignoring a fundamental point that there is always disagreement between what is right and wrong? Socrates would raise some very important questions however such as: “Do we care about the good because it is good, or do we just call good those things that we care about?” “Are truths necessary because we deem them to be so, or do we deem them to be so because they are necessary?”
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| − | ==Euthyphro 6== | |
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| − | Socrates and Euthyphro are having a discussion about whether Euthyphro should prosecute against his father because he murdered someone. Euthyphro wants to, but Socrates is questioning him and making him wonder if he really is doing it for the right reasons/purpose. Socrates questions if the person murdered was a relative or a stranger, and then goes on to question “Is the pious being loved by the gods because it is pious, or is it pious because it is being loved by the gods?” Euthyphro was confused, but Socrates explains to him, so they come to a conclusion, but seem to contradict it later where Socrates then questions more.
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| − | After Socrates asks the previous question, he has to explain what he means because Euthyphro does not understand. He asks him many questions so that Euthyphro feels as though he is answering it and understands the difference between the two parts of the question that were asked. Socrates got Euthyphro to come up with the conclusion and then Socrates summarizes it by saying, “It is being loved then that is pious, but it is not pious because it is being loved.”
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| − | They are able to reach this conclusion because Socrates asks many of the right questions which lead to more questioning which finally leads to the conclusion. He first makes sure that Euthyphro understands the difference between something that has something acting upon it and something acting/being the action. Then Socrates makes sure that Euthyphro understands the cause and effect that things have on each other. You might be able to say something one way and it makes sense, but saying it backwards would not make sense at all, so that being affected results in an affected thing, but no vice versa. Then Socrates asks Euthyphro “it is not being loved by those who love it because it is something love, but it is something loved because it is being loved by them?” and Euthyphro agrees. Socrates helps Euthyphro to define pious, so they come up with the conclusion “It is being loved then that is pious, but it is not pious because it is being loved.”
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| − | ==Euthyphro 7== | |
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| − | In “Euthyphro” Socrates runs into Euthyphro near the court where they began to discuss each of their reasoning’s for being at the court. When Euthyphro explains how he believes his father murdered one of their own slaves and is taking him to court for it, even though many of his relatives believe Euthyphro is being impious. Off of that come a discussion as to what is pious and what is impious. The main question Socrates proposes is “Is the pious loved by the gods because it is pious or is it pious because it is loved by the gods?” (10). Socrates, who thought that if he knew the definition of piety he could possibly help him self in is own case, is unsatisfied that together they do not come to a concrete definition.
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| − | Through discussion with Euthyphro, Socrates leads to a conclusion that “it is not being loved by those who love it because it is something loved, but it is something loved because it is loved by them.” He gets to this by showing how “if anything is being changed…it is not being changed because it is something changed, but rather it is something changed because it is being changed.” This means that we do not have the criteria for defining what makes something changed, just like how we do know have the criteria for showing if something is pious. That shows how the first part of his question is not the correct answer to it, and further on in their conversation he continues to go on showing that the second part of his question is no truer then the first part. Socrates then says that there are too many Gods who each love different things so that does not offer a common definition of what pious means. He tries to prove that by showing that because each of the different gods are at odds with each other because each of the “different gods considers different things to be just, beautiful, ugly, good, and bad” (7e). Because each god has a different belief on certain things, some things would be “both god-loved and god-hated” (8) which would then make one thing “both pious and impious” (8) which can not be true. Therefore, Socrates concludes that something is not pious because it is loved by the gods.
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| − | With Socrates conversation with Euthyphro, he shows how neither option in his initial question, “is the pious loved by the gods because it is pious or is it pious because it is loved by the gods?” (10), can possibly be true. He concludes that in order to come up with a clear definition they must discuss this further at a later point in time.
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| − | ==Euthyphro 8==
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| − | Socrates on the Meaning of Piety
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| − | Socrates asks the question, “Is the pious loved by the gods because it is pious or is it pious because it is loved by the gods?” Socrates uses this question to emphasize the indefinable nature of the social structure, piety. What is at stake in the question is not so much a reflection of the actual meaning of piety, but rather the realization of the inferiority and limitations of human understanding. The answer to the question proves Euphrates generalization wrong, emphasizing humanity’s tendency to claim a better understanding of complex ideas than they actually possess. This strongly enforces the main mission of Socrates’ teachings, to humble the wise and inspire personal introspection as to the identity of ultimate truth and reality.
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| − | In the continuation of his discourse with Euthyphro Socrates uses logic and the scientific method to determine that piety is not determined by the love of the gods. Socrates does this by at first assuming the opposite, that pious actions are defined by how the gods as a unified collective feel towards all actions. Then using logic he attempts and succeeds in finding fault with the above hypothesis. Socrates uses examples to make his point that change or affect creates a state, and that a state cannot create change or affect. Rather, the new state is dependent on an initial action. By rejoining this aside to the primary question concerning piety, Socrates reveals Euthyphro’s circulatory argument. Exposing how he uses the conclusion, that piety is determined by gods love, as the premises as well. In other words, the argument lacks true evidence. For something to be loved, something/someone must first love the action. So, pious actions cannot be pious because they are loved. In laymen’s terms love is an action and must be initiated by a reason. If what the gods love is pious, that does not reveal the causation of their feelings. The basis of their feelings are the true determinant of piety, not the feelings themselves.
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| − | Therefore, Socrates would answer that the pious is loved by the gods because it is pious. Yet, it is what makes an action pious that Socrates truly wished to comprehend. For this question though, he would admit that there is no distinct answer. Instead admitting to lacking a full understanding of the nature of pious actions. Socrates recognized piety as social abstract that not only has different meanings depending on the society, but differs from person to person as well. Thus, making it difficult to have a universal definition for piety that is assuredly accurate. During the discourse he continuously humbles himself, blatantly exposing his own ignorance. Although, Socrates is searching for the ultimate meaning of piety, he recognizes that truly for each person the definition will have a slightly different meaning.
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| − | ==Euthyphro 9== | |
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| − | In Euthyphro, Socrates asks Euthyphro, “Is the pious being loved by the gods because it is pious or is it pious because it is being loved by the gods?” This question is about the integrity of the people. If by nature one is pious and as a result is loved by the gods, it speaks more for the individual person. It means they naturally are good, respectful, and reverent. It is an inherent trait that they display only because it is a part of them. The latter part of the question, “Is it pious because it is being loved by the gods?” has the opposite effect. It exposes the truth of the person. Due to the fact that the gods love the person, they exhibit piety. The love the gods have for the person is the cause of their good characteristics and without that love, the person would be without it; their integrity would be absent.
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| − | Socrates answers this question by attempting to help Euthyphro to understand the nature of it. He breaks it down into comparisons. He wants Euthyphro to see parts of it to be able to make the informed opinion. He says, “Tell me then whether the thing carried is a carried thing because it is being carried, or for some other reason?” Euthyphro agrees that this reason is why and thus Socrates’ answer to the original question is clear. He would say that some are pious because they are loved by gods. This is parallel with his beliefs and the reason he is being indicted. He is trying to show the people of Athens, their ignorance and hypocrisy. His teachings and speeches are an attempt for them to see that their integrity is lacking. Their traits and “good behavior” is an effect, not a cause. They love their gods simply because the gods love them. It has nothing to do with their teachings or beliefs that the gods are great. Socrates is exposing them.
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| − | ==Euthyphro 10== | |
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| − | This question needs to be answered very carefully and there is a lot at stake in trying to come up with a logical answer. Either side could be argued and if answered wrong piety will in turn be defined wrongly. Also one has to wonder what “loved by the gods” (10) means. Socrates has to be able to understand the answer and not be able to refute it. If not then piety will not be defined and the whole conversation will be pointless. Another aspect at stake is creating a circular answer. This would happen if one was to say that both answers were correct. This cannot be because they directly oppose each other. Although in the end Socrates still doesn’t completely understand, answering this question clearly with definitions that Socrates understands is very important.
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| − | Socrates would answer the question by saying that the pious is loved by the gods because it is pious. One reason Socrates would say this is that if it was pious because it is loved by the gods then there could be no one definition of piety. This is because all of the gods disagree. Therefore if they were picking something and calling it pious then something could be pious to one god but not to another. On the other hand if certain actions are already considered pious then the gods will together love them but may still disagree to who is at fault. Another reason Socrates would believe that the pious is loved by the gods because it is pious is that piety has a human and godly part to it. Its human part is the sacrifice and begging to the gods and the godly part is the gods accepting the sacrifice and answering the people’s prayers. If something is pious because it is loved by the gods then there would be no human part to it and no justice to which Socrates and Euthyphro speak. Lastly Socrates would answer this question this way because piety is something that is far beyond the gods. They do not say what is pious and what is not because they already know what is and isn’t pious. It is based on morality and what is good and bad in society. If not then the gods could just choose anything that they wanted to be pious including murder, stealing, etc. and just because they love their own ideas these things become pious.
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| − | ==Euthyphro 11== | |
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| − | The question Socrates poses to Euthyphro is: is the pious loved by the gods because it is pious or is it pious because it is being loved by the gods? In the conversation between Socrates and Euthyphro, Socrates maintains the belief that piety is not caused by an external factor like the gods, but instead is piety for piety’s sake. However, Euthyphro thinks that piety is caused by the feelings of the gods (namely someone is pious because they are loved by the gods). During their discussion, Socrates asks Euthyphro many questions that are aimed at undermining his position that piety is caused by another factor (the gods). By the end of the conversation, Euthyphro has revoked his first claim and sees the logic that Socrates has spelled out for him. However, they do not even delve into the subject of what piety actually is; instead their whole conversation is simply about the cause of piety. Socrates offers many arguments to Euthyphro to prove his point that the pious is loved by the gods because it is pious and not vice versa. He begins by pointing out that god-loved and piety are two different things. Socrates goes on to try to get Euthyphro to define what deeds the gods achieve, using concrete examples of animals and professions as a comparison. Through this questioning, he gets Euthyphro to narrow down his definition of what piety entails to the gods- to be pious is to beg and give to the gods. However, Euthyphro ends up at the realization that he is now saying that the pious is what is dear to the gods. So therefore, he has come to the conclusion that what is god-loved is pious (and is not pious because it is god-loved), which is precisely the opposite of what Euthyphro initially concluded. Throughout their conversation, Socrates manipulated Euthyphro to take back his first opinion through many different arguments which defined the terms they were using and critically examined what god-loved really entailed.
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